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• i Cant understand
• Posted: 2007-12-05 06:17:36 By Mose H
• Why goverment spending so much mony on war and killing people insted of helping impaired people like us if just 2% of the mony which usa spend on iraq war will maybe give us the normal sigh back that is horrible
  im sorry for my english...i hope that u in usa can tell those who are rich like bil gate and the holywood stars can donate for are FFB

• Re: i Cant understand
• Posted: 2007-12-07 05:21:04 By Drew C
• while i believe in the war effort, i can understand where you are coming from.
  
  personally i feel it's less to do with money and more to do with ethics and mis-information through the media.
  
  i cannot remember how many times i've heard the media run with sensationaist headlines and questions like "are we going to create super humans?". "are we committing mass murder?" and so on. and unfortunately many people are too strict in their religous beliefs which definately as slowed down progress.
  
  as you said yourself the war spending is a small fraction of the overall budget. it's the "righteous religous" who think their doing god's work, and media sensationalism which causes the most damage to progress.
  
  just my opinion of course!

• Re: Re: i Cant understand
• Posted: 2007-12-07 07:15:06 By Reyne K
• In my humble opinion, it is not the question of lack of money...It is truely the complex science of vision and the brain. Scientists do not know how vision really works as it is entangled with the brain unlike any other organ. Any drug company or research scientist would love to find the answer to conquering blindness. They are working everyday to find a cure but it is not that simple. Just as drug companies, right now are hard pressed to find new drugs, so are researchers hard pressed to understand the human photoreceptors. They are doing research and possibly in the distant future, there will be some cures or possibly they be able to arrest some conditions. It is not a matter of money. That is my two cents worth as I my husband is in the drug industry and I know how hard it is to publish new data and get approval from the FDA.
  We have to keep our chins up and continue to pray for a cure. :-)
  
  ~Reyne

• It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-08 07:20:03 By james n
• Yeah i believe the FFB is lacking of bright scientists.
  
  I'm not saying that the current scitists are dumb, because i believe in the logic of the more brains the better.
  
  I wish they will realize that too it is not really more on money. It is also the matter of the best and the brightest scientist that should be working. The more the better.
  
  

• Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-08 07:32:17 By Reyne K
• James,
  
  I think you misunderstood what I said or the translation was misinterpreted....I meant that eyesight or how we see is directly connected to our visual pathways and is really a complex process. It is not completely understood and therefore hard to figure out. There are plenty of bright scientists. We are not lacking in this respect...Other nations are hard at work too and so is everyone on the FFB. Sorry you interpreted my opinion in a negative way. It is not the money nor brains. :-)
  
  ~Reyne

• Re: Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-09 08:52:12 By Drew C
• also i think it's the focus on the most promising pathways to the cure which needs refinement. currently a lot of scientist have their own ideas how to solve this condition, and that course dilutes the pool of researches and resources.
  
  drugs, electro-shocks, vitamins, magical acupunture etc. are NOT the answer.
  
  a combination of stem cells (to replace/repair the dead cells) and gene therapy (to disable the faulty gene/s which cause the cells to self destruct in the first place) seem to be the best direction for success. all trial results seem to indicate this.
  
  this is where all the manpower, energy and resources should be focused into.
  
  drugs MIGHT offer a potential cure in the
  "distant future" as Reyne pointed out but that is because the research via drugs is not really the right horse to back in this race.
  
  stem cells and gene therapy will most likely offer the best cure and far sooner if people could agree to promote this line of research, instead of discussing all the media horror theories and such. not to mention get over the stupid ethical worries which are quite insane.
  
  a while back a child died when they tried a radical new treatment using gene therapy. as a result all gene therapy trials were halted for over one year while the red tape had to be cut through for fear of what the media would turn the failure into. what wasn't widely known, is the fact that the child was given the wrong treatment. it was human error and not the therapy which killed the child. also the child was terminally ill to begin with. it seems with litigations and red tape, the western countries are moving far slower than they potentially can, which is tragic for all the sufferers of conditions out there, and not just RP.
  
  humankind is on the verge of one of the biggest, if not the biggest, medical revolutions in our history.
  
  it's frustrating to think we could be much closer to a cure by now, or potentially cured, if it wasn't for vying factions with finanical, ethical, political and religious interest in a big tug of war, because they suffer a lack of empathy or vision.
  
  P.S. i do not condone 100% freedom for scientist to do anything they wish to achieve the results, but i also feel they should not have to spend so much time defending their ideas and begging for permissions at every step of the process, from the likes of priests, lawyers and politicans.

• Re: Re: Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-09 13:11:05 By Reyne K
• Drew,
  
  You made a lot of good points.....Very well said
  and I am in agreement with you!! :-)
  
  ~Reyne

• Re: Re: Re: Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-09 17:41:04 By Marisa P
• These are good discussions and I'll add my two cnets worth. I think it's good to have scientists focus on different possible treatments/cures in the hope that at leaast one will work. As in investments, you wouldn't want to put all your eggs in the same basket.
  
  We underestimate the body's power of healing itself when everything works and therefore are not aware of what we can do to help the body. That is why some studies focus on supplements. Many of the scientists actively involved in a search for a treatment will tell you that whatever is found will not be a magic bullet. Instead it will be a conbination of therapies that will prove benefitial.
  
  A lot of the funding for research for retinal disorders comes from private sources and we could probably advance faster if the federal funding were there. You are probably aware of Bush's veto of the bill that was to provide funding for diseases including cancer, eye disorders...The CNTF clinical trial would not be taking place had it not been for private funding because the federal government canned that one as well.
  
  I think we need to flood our state representatives with letters educating them on the need to provide more research funding for our cause. Personally, I think they are under the impression that only the elderly are affected so why be concerned...they'll die anyways.
  
  Because we don't see well and often don;t hear well, we are not as vocal and give the impression that there are not many of us. For instance, Usher Syndrome is more common than ALS and other so called common diseases yet hardly anyone seems to know what it is. Yet, according to Dr. Kimberling, one of every ten persons worldwide carry the gene. People are also unaware of the fact that RP and related retinal disorders affect inants as well as adults and, if nothing is done we'll continue to see lives affected for years to come costing the government and Social Security even more money.
  
  So, I really think we need to let our government know how many of us are there. This goes for every country, not just the U.S.
  
  Marisa

• Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-10 08:29:25 By Reyne K
• Yes!! Marisa it is definitely important, especially when the FFB suggests that we do so, to contact our representatives about funding the various agencies about federal funding for retinal degenerative conditions. Every letter counts.
  ALS is less common than Usher? Funny that if a celebrity gets a disease, then there is more funding and research going on. We need a famous person to get RP with Usher's. That might get the (eye) ball rolling!
  
  ~Reyne
  
  
  
  

• Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-10 10:46:36 By Drew C
• you know i was just about to say the same thing Reyne :)
  
  in fact i was wondering how many (if any) celebrities there are out there with usher's or RP.
  
  one celebrity would create more awareness and action than many fundraisers and such which simply do not have access to the mass market like famous people do.
  
  also the more elite the celebrity is, the more buzz generated. i would imagine a top hollywood actor/actress would garner more interest than a sportsman. i could be wrong but i always seem to see hollywood at the forefront banging the drums for this and that cause. it's about time some one really famous helped our mission along!

• Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-10 11:28:53 By Marisa P
• There are so called celebrities with RP out there. What we really need is to educate the general public and get them to understand what we go though. There is a State Representative here in Dallas who has a 16 year old with RP nad he spoke to the Senate and House of Representatives Funding committees and presented the repercussions of not funding such research as well as the present and future needs. Yes, the billions they are spending in Iraq came up. It obviously wasn't enough when the bill was vetoed. We really need to flood their mailboxes at least once a month so that they know that are needs are daily and not only during special key times.

• Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-10 19:08:43 By Beth M
• Meradith Vierra is married to a man who has RP and is legally blind, if i'm not mistaken. She has mentioned it a couple of times on the View in the past but really has never spent too much time discussing it other than to tease about what a lousy pool shot he is. LOL I can relate to that.:)
  Beth

• Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-10 22:46:23 By Natalie C
• Marisa, Drew, etc.
  I guess my question to all of you is "What are you doing to help?" Have your started an FFB chapter in your state? If one exists, do you volunteer your time to help get the word out in your community about these diseases? Do you contribute financially if you are able? Why do many people not know about these diseases...read a few other posts and you'll find out that many of us hide our visual impairments from close friends, employers, even family!! How can you expect the general public to know how many of us there are when many of our own families don't know. And spending for RDD research...Neurotech is a perfect example...FFB, a privately funded organization, funded the preclinical work and now a private company is working on the treatment. Could be out in two years. You really think the government could have done that? Of course the scientists, government and private sector care. They are all human beings, not monsters. If you've ever canvassed your local neighborhood for ANY cause, you know that there are fifty other GOOD CAUSES that have been to the door right before you asking for money as well. Ushers may or may not affect more people than ALS, but I don't know anyone who has died from Ushers...I do know people who have died from ALS. On the scale of "importance" saving a life has always come before improving the quality of a life. Sorry to sound like a soapbox, but I can't take the bitter discourse aimed at undeserving people. If you're mad about losing your vision, get in line. But put the anger toward something productive. It isn't Bush's fault, or the Hollywood celebrities, or the mad dumb scientists, or even our parent's fault. It's the lot we've been dealt and we can do good with it. It does ****, but it won't kill you so focus on the positive and go volunteer at a pediatric cancer clinic or some other non-profit and get your life back in perspective. Good night

• Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-10 23:28:53 By Marisa P
• Natalie,
  
  I certainly didn't mean to sound "mad" because I am not. Anyone who knows me will tell you that I am a very positive person. I was just stating the facts and repeating what many, including the FFB, has said that we need to do. We will only be heard as a group, because that is how they'll know that there are thousands of us out there. The bill in question asked for ongoing funding and it was not only for research for eye disorders. It was also for SSP, training and communicative resources for the deaf/blind, research funding for different kinds of cancer, Alzheimer's, etc. If you read what is going on in research, you will see that gene therapy, for instance, is being used for a whole scope of illnesses. The Federal governemnt does provide medical research funding and the FFB would not be able to do it alone, which is why they asked for our help in the first place. While that bill did not affect my life whatsoever because I don't require any services yet, I know of many deaf/blind who depend on those services for everyday survival. So, people don't die of RP/Usher, but they do die of accidents resulting from it.
  
  Yes, we do have a local FFB branch that Rep. Sessions, whose son has RP, helped establish. I can't get to it so I do contribute and solicit funds by phone, mail and around my neighborhood. I might add that I don't only do it for RP/Usher, I do it for cancer, breast cancer, St. Jude's Children's Hospital, Leukemia Foundation, Paralyzed Veterans, Diabetes, etc., and I have thousands of free mailing labels to prove it. :) I am not affected by any of those ailments/conditions, but I know that many people are and that is why I do it.
  
  I do believe that most people think that these retinal disorders only affect the elderly probably because Macular Degenration is even on TV commercials now. I can't tell you the number of times that I have told someone and their comment is "but, you are so young to have that." as Dr. Kimberling says, people with Usher tend to be more sheltered and isolated due to the nature of the disability, which is another reason why many we are not heard or seen. It's also not as easy for us to get around in communities with no public transportation of any sort.
  
  As in all aspects of life, if we want something done, we need to do it ourselves. This message board is a place where we come to discuss and share and I certainly don't expect anyone here to do anything for me.
  

• Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-11 00:38:16 By Drew C
• Natalie,
  
  i understand what you are saying, but to think there are no people or organistations which have slowed or stood in the way of progress is a little unrealistic. there are brilliant, dedicated people who dream of healing others. and there also exist those who are apathetic, arrogant and believe others should follow their lead.
  
  whether you like to believe it or not, religous/political figures have dug their heels in to do their best to prevent certain types of research because they believe it's wrong - and therefore it must be imposed upon others.
  
  george bush is a good example of this. he might personally see the benefits of various stem cell funding but being a politican, the votes come first, and everyone knows there is a very powerful bloc who fear change or are simply narrow minded.
  
  if you don't believe me, do some research. when the world was considered round by some thinkers, they were killed. when the car was invented it was labeled the "devil's vehicle". when the contraceptive pill arrived on the market, the church fought against what the general populace wanted. hell, even masturbation was considered a sin as you were killing potential lives! the list goes on and on.
  
  the hypocricy sickens me sometimes. yes i get angry at times about my eyesight but i do not sit around and feel sorry for myself if that is what you were implying. but i also get angry when i see (usually healthy) hypocrites telling the majority what to do. also these same righteous people always end up adopting the very thing they condemned in the first place. im sure there are many priest, ministers and civil rights lawyers who drive cars and use medicines when they, or loved ones, are affected by something! ;)
  
  of course im being rather harsh, as i've met some absolutely wonderful lawyers and church going people and my grandmother and mother are religous. there is good and bad in every walk of life. but when a powerful organisation such as the catholic church (just picking one of many organisations) is out there making progress a lot harder than it needs to be, then i get frustrated. i'm 26 but for 6 years i've supported a child through the salvation army even though i am not really religous and live on a pension. i believe in god, but not of the man-made insitutions, as i really don't believe god wants anyone to live with their ailments if there is a chance for us to create a cure. i try to do what i can, but that shouldn't mean i have to just sit back and cop the insanity that regularly crops up in certain circles, whether it be religous/political/ethical and so on.
  
  belive me i DO realise safety comes first. i DO realise people need to discuss things. but when bush veto'ed the federal funding because of religous lobbyist, guess what? the states decided to go ahead and start funding because the majority of americans are not so strict in their beliefs that they cannot see the benefits.
  
  that's one of the reasons i support the coalition efforts in afghanistan and iraq. the soldiers (unlike what the media like to say) are doing an amazing and heroic job over there helping many people. the alternative is theocratic dictatorship in the middle east with fruitcake ideologies.
  
  bin laden often drones on about how we need to go back to a fundamental way of life because his god says so. well, that isn't stopping him from taking his liver medication which is made in america by scienetist who obviously have a sane way of looking at life!
  
  many scientist are religous. but there is a difference between a god fearing person, and a moderate person. the god fearing person believes god will provide in everything. if we really followed that to the letter we would still be pagans in the woods. the moderate people believe god put us on this planet to think for ourselves. and if we all let the scientist get on with the job, we would be a LOT further ahead. and not just in our condition, but in all fields ranging from the painful ones to the fatal ones.
  
  i know people will a variety of conditions, from mental disablities to cancer, so it's not just a selfish request!
  
  political and religous will, are PART of the reasons why things are moving slowly. if you believe differently, then that is cool. i am fully aware research is not easy or straight forward. and yes, the private sector usually are more motivated than the sluggish bureacratic machine. but if we can remove the illogical people from the equation, we would get results much quicker. because ultimately, those same stubborn folk will end up using the very things they considered sinful or just plain wrong.
  
  hopefully i didn't misunderstand what you were saying :)

• Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-11 13:00:52 By Marisa P
• Well said, Drew. I feel for the younger generations. Fortunately, I was able to live a rather normal life, pursue and practice a career until a couple of years ago at age 51, in spite of Usher.
  
  Whatever decisions are made now will affect individuals over the next ten to thirty years. My mother chose to undergo experimental chemotherapy treatment not approved by the FDA for cancer 31 years ago and it has only been in the last 5 to 10 years that it's been approved. So, it didn't help her, but it's helping many today.
  
  I am realistic and don't have much hope in the current research for myself, but I want it to move forward for the thousands of you young people out there and for future generations as well.
  
  So, we need to keep fighting every way we know how to find ways to stop and prevent full blown ailments that interfere with an individual's quality of life and cost the Federal Government a lot more money that funding research. With effective therapies available, people can be gainfully employed, live independently and contribute to society instead of being forced to rely on SS and Medicare their entire life.

• Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2007-12-11 14:28:00 By Natalie C
• I agree on many issues with you both, Drew and Marissa. And I differ on some issues. With all that aside, I think together we can focus on the positive and do a world of good. Sorry I sounded so ____ (fill in your own word here), but I have just found that I have no time or tolerance for focusing on the 'bad" people or negative influences anymore. I truly don't believe that people--scientists, politicians, etc. as a whole are out to get us. No, I am not naive and don't assume everyone has our best interests at heart, but I do think some of the people previously shamed in earlier posts, do have good intentions and believe as strongly in their reasons for doing things (ie opposing stem cell research) as we all do for supporting it. My point, we could argue all day, but why waste it on useless rhetoric when we can be actively making a difference for ourselves and others. Marissa, I do love your usually positive posts--keep them coming!

• Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's the BRAIN
• Posted: 2008-01-11 08:53:02 By Carol C
• Hey, I think there has been a lot of misunderatanding about what Bush vetoed re: stem cells. He is against EMBRYONIC stem cells, as the results with these have been very poor- only malignant tumors for recipients. ADULT stem cells are very promising, and lots of your money and mine is funding this research ( the government is you and me- all it's money comes from our pockets).Adult stem are plentiful in all of us- never-ending supply. Embryonic researchers can't get funding anymore- private money tends to follow successful research, becaue profits are important to shareholders (again, you and me, if you have any money in a bank or stock market fund). If you are heavily invested in bad research, try to confuse the public and force the government to fund it.Then blame the resistence on religious, principled people, bcause if there is anyone with standards around, there will be a liberal to help you bash them.

• Re: i Cant understand
• Posted: 2007-12-11 14:23:35 By andrew b
• What a fun post! I've enjoyed reading the back and forth on everything. You've covered the war in iraq, religion - islam, catholicism, politics and more.
  
  First, the war in iraq was wrong, and is still wrong. It's a classic case of out of the frying pan into the fire. Bush opened pandoras box. I say divide it into the 3 pieces and leave it be. The concept of countries didn't exist there prior to world war II anyway.
  
  Second, I don't believe the Catholic Church is being hypocritical in their rationale about stem cell research. Their belief is consistent with their teachings. They have no issue with adult stem cell research, just embryonic, which a ton of non-catholics do as well. It's interesting to note that while embryonic stem cells seem to have a lot of promise, there is yet to be any break throughs involving them. I posted a long time ago about the debate about adult against embryonic. Scan through and find it if you want to see why embryonic research is for the most part pointless.
  
  Science and religion are always interesting when mixed together. So many avowed atheists all have church backgrounds. If you observe closely, you'll notice that scientists aren't so much disbelieving in God as they are angry. You can tell this by realizing that speaking against God is the one time these scientists aren't objective. Listen to their tone and vigor. Anyway, I say this to prove a few things.
  
  One. Atheists are usually angry at God. You can't be angry at something you don't believe in.
  
  Two. Atheists who really, truly don't believe in God are stupid, because you can no more prove God doesn't exist (in any shape or form regardless of religion) than God does exist.
  
  Three. Agnostics are those worthy of respecting because they're capable of admitting they don't know, which in the end also defines those of us who do believe because we can no better substantiate the existence of God than an Agnostic can.
  
  In the end, you have to take a stand on something, whether you believe or don't believe in a God. When you've decided if you believe, then derive your value system based on that set of beliefs. If you're a Christian, or a Catholic, then you can't support embryonic stem cell research. If you're agnostic, or atheist, you still need to begin with a core set of values that dictates how you live your life. Do you agree murder is wrong? Is it wrong to steal? Is it wrong to lie? You don't need God to believe those things.
  
  Then, look at the cycle of life, how it begins, how it develops, how it ends. If you agree that murder is wrong, then decide when you think it begins. Is it day one zygote? Is it day 140, is it day 280 when the baby exits the mother? Bear in mind that preemies have been born at 160 days.
  
  The reason I pose the questions this way is that because Pro-Choice / Pro-Life have entered the debate on stem cell research. Both sides are huge marketing machines, and so many people base their decision making process on marketing and convenience rather than actually having some type of sound logic for their decision.
  
  Interesting note. In 2006, Europe had more abortions than live births.
  
  Of course, writing this, some may wonder, or guess what I believe. I believe life begins at inception. I've met 12 women who've all had abortions. Every single one regretted it. All said it was a matter of convenience and a way to avoid dealing with bad choices. If you're old enough to have sex, you're old enough to have a kid. If you don't want to have a kid, then be careful about it and take personal responsibility. Abortion in my opinion is a cop out.
  
  I would naturally think that most on this board would be against abortions because if you know anything of the Eugenics movement, Hitler, and the "pro-choice" lobby, none of us would have been born under those criteria.

• Re: Re: i Cant understand
• Posted: 2007-12-11 23:22:34 By Drew C
• Hi Andrew,
  
  thanks for the post. well said. i don't agree fully with everything you said but i definately can understand that point of view.
  
  firstly, about being a believer or not. i do believe there is a god, i just don't believe in going to church on sundays and eating the flesh and drinking the blood of his son. i just think that religions are successful cults, and man-made creations in order to control the population thousands of years ago and give them direction in a world which had very few answers to frightening questions. amd in times of much suffering. but again, that is a personal assumption. i could be wrong. but i could also be correct. no one really knows as there are many religions and splinter groups, but i really don't care what other people do or not do. provided it doesn't force me into a certain position because of someone else's beliefs.
  
  for example the catholic church, muslim clerics etc. might have good intentions, but they do not represent everyone. therefore it's a form of dictatorship if they expect agreement. which i think most modern people don't wish for. and yes, while the embryonic stem cell research IS controversial and ethically charged, i find it hard to believe rome truly follows their own teachings all the time. you only have to look at what they have been involved in over history to see they have been directly and indirectly responsible for bloodshed on the genocide level spanning many conflicts. as for hitler you are right. we would have been executed by the regime for having flaws... the same regime who was backed by the catholic church.
  
  in fact the current pope was a former nazi member. now i understand if you are a strong believer in the catholic teachings. there is no problem with that. all religons have beautiful, peaceful teachings. but to say they never contradicted their teachings, or have the blood of millions on their hands in order to retain power, much like the desperate clerics in the middle east are doing today as we speak, is a long stretch. as terrible it is to admit, the modern day churches as we know them were once no better than the islamic fundamentalist who are causing so much strife in the world today.
  
  that leads me into the next dilemma. the war is just. yes it was optional in a sense, but it is noble. saddam invaded kuwait - an ally of america - which lead to the first gulf war. after america contained saddam, he regularly violated the no-fly rules put in place by the UN. he also tried his best to shoot down our planes which is an act of war. the military wanted to go in, but again, the bloated western governments put it off, like many hard decisions! while there ended up being no WMD in the second gulf war, (partially because as a democratic militaries the coalition seem to like giving our enemies a good long warning before they attack. plenty of time to shift the evidence! i could not see china or russia giving saddam any warning before an invasion) the coalition did end up removing a threat, no matter how big or small. also we secured the oil fields which as much as people hate to admit, is the lifeline of the world, especially in the west. everyone thought the chaos surrounding the katrina disaster was bad, imagine what would happen if the oil stopped? mass anarchy because some fundamentalist and military dictators decided to screw with the westernised world. we are addicted to oil, and survive on it. until we go green, we simply cannot allow fruitcakes to control such a vital resource. that's another failing of the western governments. we should have gone green 10 years ago, but most politicians are shuffling along, afraid to rock the boat. there are plenty more reasons for why we are all in this mess at the moment, but that would be to much for this post :)
  
  as for abortions. i don't believe in abortions in general as like you said, it is an easy way to avoid responsiblity/mistakes etc. but unlike religious organisations which believe every life is sacred (unless you stand against their beliefs which means it's slaying time :P) i do believe there IS some situations where abortions are perfectly valid. for example. if a mother will die due to the pregnacy then abortion is okay. if a woman is raped, then abortion is fine. if a doctor detects that the baby will be hideously deformed/mentally disabled or will live a short painful existance before dying from some disease, then yes, abortions in my eyes and many others, is perfectly fine. for anti-abortionist to say there is no excuses whatsoever, is just their opinion. no matter how much it may rile them up, it is a democratic society we live in. therefore they have to accept it.
  
  as for embryonic stem cells and where life begins, it depends on the situation. there are many ways to go about this. perhaps the mother has to have an abortion for health reasons. use those stem cells. don't waste them. perhaps the mother was raped. use those stem cells. if abortions are to be continued, then at least have the potential life give a gift to the world. as for the technical nitty gritty, i may sound like a monster, but if they found that indeed, embryonic stem cells did in fact cure many diseases, then taking those cells when they are literally cells, is something i would be willing to accept, especially with the above scenarios. remember, religion has caused the most bloodshed of all groups historically. the most violence socially, culturally etc. so they should be the last organisations to stand up and defend this issue.
  if it turns out that embryonic stem cells indeed cured many terminal diseases, painful diseases and so on. and saved millions of lives and improved their quality of life dramatically, is that not a noble sacrifice? there is no easy solution to this debate. but i am sure, if there was a life ending disease that could only be cured by embryonic stem cells, any parents of children who have such a disease would do anything to save their child. if a mother was presented with the option to terminate her own embryonic cells to save her 10 year old daughter from a painful drawn out disease which ends in death, i'm sure most would take that option.
  
  also you mentioned about sex. makes perfect sense, but once again, the church considered sperm a life, and therefore were/are against masterbation or sex outside of procreation. now, sperm is like a tadpole. it is alive and if it is not released it eventually dies and is recycled back into the bloodstream. new sperm is created and the process continues. same for women and their cycles. their bodies flush out the eggs, which terminates the other half of the equation. why did god design it that way if they die regularly? isn't that a conflict of belief then? or is it only a problem when mankind intercept and manipulate the natural order of things? this comes back to whether you believe god put us on earth to find our own way, or to accept the status quo and do nothing. or at least what might be percieved as wrong.
  
  one way i look at is is like this: god is a gardener. he is constantly planting beautiful roses (us) in the fertile soil then moves on, always planting roses. some roses will flourish, while others wither and die. he does not shed tears if one rose dies. all he wants to do is plant the roses. but im sure if we found ways to keep the roses healthy and strong, that too would not bother him. he is neutral in all things. he is the creator. after that job it no longer matters to him. we have to make decisions on our own. yes we can use guidelines from the bible or koran or toran, but at the end of the day we are our own saviours.
  
  however this debate is becoming more and more academic as like you said, adult stem cells are proving to hold great promise, and even successes right now. i am also happy about this as it continues forward the research without journalist and public figures getting in the way and trying to turn people against it. however if indeed one day it turned out that embryonic stem cells could do certain things that adult stem cells could not, i would support that as well. if the majority believe as i do, then i fully expect the minority to allow it to continue. hell, im sure those who are against it would also use embryonic derived cures, as i cannot see them standing aside while their loved ones died out of principle. however, let's hope it never comes to that crossroad!
  
  regards,
  Drew

• Re: Re: Re: i Cant understand
• Posted: 2007-12-12 10:01:28 By andrew b
• I love good discourse, thanks for the great insights. Having sold to the US Army for many years, hearing from commanders, and the warfighter on the ground, I have a pretty different view on the war there. When looking through time, we have to view Iraq like a Profit and Loss statement. Which side of the balance sheet to you see the war being on? Was Saddam a scum bag? Yes, but scumbags are a dime a dozen around the world. We haven't deposed any of the leaders in Africa whom are 10 times worse than Sadaam. We haven't invaded N. Korea. It was as you hinted, a war for Oil. Yet, oil prices now are higher than they were when Saddam was in power, granted worldwide demand is up 30% since that time. Seeing how much waste is there (ala Haliburton), I know, they bought from me, is disconcerting. Having friends shot by 9 year olds, or soldiers spit on. These people are not grateful to the US. Sorry, it's a bad war.
  
  Many of your beliefs about religion are close to those of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. I think you'd enjoy some of TJ's writings.
  
  Honestly, there's a lot more promise in Gene Therapy than stem cells. Sure, you need stem cells (adult will work) to replace dead cells, but you need gene therapy to rewrite the DNA so that the same problem doesn't occur all over again.
  
  Finally, thoughts on the Pope being a former Nazi, if you look at voter records in 1932, over half of all Jews in Germany voted for Hitler. Saying the Pope was a Nazi is meaningless, unless you can prove he served in the military, conspired to hurt the Jews, and prove he continued to support Hitler after 1938, my opinion is unaffected by that fact.

• Re: Re: Re: Re: i Cant understand
• Posted: 2007-12-12 16:57:01 By Marisa P
• One tabout stem cells....People get carried away with the embryonic stem cells being used in research and really, if you read or listen to what is going on in research for a number of diseases, there is a lot more hope for the ADULT stem cells and that is where the main focus seems to be. A research told me a couple of years ago that the breakthrough will come from the use of adult stem cells and not from embryonic stem cells and I think he is right.

• Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i Cant understand
• Posted: 2007-12-22 11:52:57 By Drew C
• didn't have access to the computer for a while so i couldn't reply to the thread.
  
  i agree about there being many scumbags etc. but i think it depends on whether something is in the national interest. if some despot in africa is not causing the western powers any grief, then they go untouched. if that same despot was crazy enough to threaten us, then obviously they are kicking a tiger in the butt.
  
  as for iraqi's who hate our soldiers, that is sadly a part of warfare. obviously those who hate usually have real reasons for that. lost family members in war with us. fanatics, or benefitted under saddam's regime. and on the other side there are many who happy the coalition are there for other reasons. as for being spat on. sadly, that also happens by us spoilt westerners. when my uncle came back from vietnam, there were times when blood was thrown at them. spat on by hippies etc. so you can see there differing opinions of this issue.
  
  the only way we could avoid future tangling with foriegn powers is to stop immigration. and that will never happen so we will always have nutters who will try and populate our countries to start internal strife. so if we can't stop immigration, we have to go to the source of the problem.
  
  i know some people in the coalition as well. an officer and a couple soldiers plus a pilot. they all are undecided at the moment except for for the officer who truly believes it will ultimately work. anyway we could argue points all day and it wont get us anywhere :)
  
  as for my beliefs, i didn't know the founding fathers had similar ideas. being from australia i don't really know a lot about american history. i will check it out sometime!
  
  and for marisa, i agree adult stemcells have a lot of promise, but to me i would not neglect embroynic stemcells if it's proven they can do something. for example, there was a bbc report on a few elderly people who had embryonic stemcells transplants about 3 years ago. and while some didn't get good results the main person interviewed has regained enough sight to play golf, read, walk around normally again etc. it improved that much. this was done in england however so maybe the scientific community hold different views on the matter compared to their american counterparts. i will hunt it down again, if you or anyone else is interested in the video clip.

• Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: i Cant understand
• Posted: 2007-12-22 22:27:11 By Marisa P
• Drew,
  
  My understanding is that adult stem cells are more predictable. I am with you, I would take whatever cells are proven effective.